i have blogged about zarahemla books before
which has published some of my favorite books
based on mormon culture.
i gushed about on the road to heaven here
and here
along with another zarahemla title
long after dark.
recently i finished another book
from the same publisher
called no going back.
it is a story about two mormon teenagers
one straight and the other gay.
the story winds around their choices,
the reaction of their community,
and church.
it is a hopeful, insightful and faithful story
and addresses homosexuality
in the lds church.
along with carol lynn pearson's novel
goodbye, i love you
--a story about carol lynn's experience
with her gay husband and their mormon faith--
no going back
taught me more about
the complications of faith and feelings
when directly impacted by homosexuality.
i think one thing this book illustrates well
is a successful relationship
between a bishop and a young man
and how together they navigate
the young man's choices,
his options
and future.
i appreciate langford's willingness
to write about this subject
with hope and respect.
read more, or purchase here.
51 reactions:
I need to read this book. This may hold my answer.
--Mari
The bible, king james version of course, states that this is abomination in the site of God. God, our Heavenly Father does not make gay people. That is not his divine design for mankind.And you don't have to be mormon to know that!Instead of encouraging it we should pray against it.
i'll follow these links as it's a topic for all of us in today's world.
i prefer comments that are not made anonymously. come on out and take your stand, whatever way you feel on this complicated issue.
"God, our Heavenly Father does not make gay people"
well there are plenty of gay people here. so obviously He does.
anon. You might not think that when your child or sibling tells you they are gay. Our family is dealing with this right now. Its a tricky tricky path and just praying 'that it wont exist' does not help anyone. Those dealing with it and those whose dreams are dashed when loved ones come out.
As other acquaintance said when questioned about his life (to help us deal with this sudden knowledge) he said when asked when he knew he was gay.. That noone would EVER choose to be this way.
I believe we have choices and I agree that maybe God does not make people Gay, and you can still be gay and not act on those impulses and be a faithful Lds member
but there is no room for hatred, biased oppinions, judgements. For that is up to God. We must love.
I thought Mormons believed that gay men should hide their true feelings and pray away the gay?
One of the many reasons I'm not a member of your hateful church...
wow.....not sure who Anonymous is, but your faith is your faith and even if you do not agree with another persons faith, does not give you the right to be judgemental or hateful.
Only God gets to judge each person on earth.....and your last comment was just filed in your paperwork and even though you Anonymous on here, He knows who you are regardless.
so on the news the other day, there was a story about a man who was burying his gay son who had died while serving in the military, and protestors crashed the party, rejoicing that another gay soldier had died and screaming their opinions that gay men should not be serving. the man took the group to court and lost and was told to pay the groups court fees.
this group and the anonymous author of the first post...these people appall me. i cannot comprehend how hate can eat away at someone so much.
thanks for blogging about this book.
oh, and amie, i like you. :]
Hatred and bigotry should NEVER fill the heart of an LDS saint.
In a message given by Elder Oaks (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve in the Church of Jesus Christ- men who's sole purpose is to be a special witness of Jesus Christ), he states:
"In the midst of the challenges and choices of mortal life, we are all under the Savior’s commandment to “love one another” (John 15:12, 17). As the First Presidency said in a recent message:
“We are asked to be kinder with one another, more gentle and forgiving. We are asked to be slower to anger and more prompt to help. We are asked to extend the hand of friendship and resist the hand of retribution. We are called upon to be true disciples of Christ, to love one another with genuine compassion, for that is the way Christ loved us.” 6
Kindness, compassion, and love are powerful instruments in strengthening us to carry heavy burdens imposed without any fault of our own and to do what we know to be right."
Love the sinner, hate the sin. The church recognizes that there is same sex attraction- but that acting upon those feelings is against our loving Heavenly Father's divine plan. The church is a church of love and forgiveness and progress to become like him.
My 17-year-old has been going through a decision-making process about whether to be gay or not for 3 or 4 years now. He'll have a girlfriend for a while and when something happens to his relationship, he is suddenly gay. He makes it public even. My view will always be it's a choice as this is the first "brush" I've had with gaydom and I see him vacillating. At any rate, he may choose to join that throng much to my dismay (I still see it as a perversion, like it or not). I will love him just the same - pretty much have to don't I? BUT...I will NEVER be out fighting for gay rights--gay marriage in particular--just because I have a son who MADE THAT CHOICE. I am prepared in my mind. I will be reading this book, absolutely. Thanks, CJane for bringing it to our attention.
I am LDS and my uncle is gay. Would I make that choice for him? No... however, I am thankful that he is happy! And I appreciate that he has been in one relationship since I was 6 years old... about 32+ years. Outside of church, I don't know many heterosexual couples who have been together that long. I believe that when we came to this earth, we were given a little bag of "things" we'll deal with... I'm fat and I have to keep an eye on my temper... Maybe my uncle came with "being gay" in his bag... At the end of the day, it's not my place to judge. He's a good person and so is his partner. I love them and will take them as they are!
Anonymous (7:17 am):
Maybe your son is "vacillating" because he is actually gay and knows you view it as a "perversion."
How hard for him to know his very own mother sees something that is internal and biological to him as being so wrong. I'm sorry for your son. When did you "choose" to be heterosexual? Choosing to act is one thing, but to think that being hetero, gay, or bisexual is a choice is completely erroneous.
Please stop judging your son, for one day he may turn and judge you in ways he sees you lacking. A parent’s job is not to criticize or dictate to their almost adult child.
I'm not trying to be mean; I'm merely hoping you change some of your choices before it is too late.
criticalcrass wrote:
"so on the news the other day, there was a story about a man who was burying his gay son who had died while serving in the military, and protestors crashed the party, rejoicing that another gay soldier had died and screaming their opinions that gay men should not be serving. the man took the group to court and lost and was told to pay the groups court fees."
To clarify, you are referring to Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church. The young soldier in question was not gay - Phelps and his following protest at the funerals of military soldiers because it is their (obviously insane) belief that US soldiers are dying overseas because God is angry at America's tolerance of homosexuality.
Sane people don't see the connection between the two, but Phelps is really far out there. His message is to spread hate as far as possible.
Anyway, I do understand what you're saying - that people like that are appalling - and I completely agree with you!
I just wanted to clarify that Phelps and his followers don't protest at the funerals of gay soldiers; they protest at the funerals of soldiers for the reasons stated above.
These are the same folks who protested at Matthew Shepherd's funeral simply because he was gay.
They travel the country spreading hate wherever they can. It's sick.
I'm LDS and have 2 gay brothers. My mom subsequently left the church over this heartache. I judge none of them.
If you don't think people are born "gay" then you might consider taking biology 101. People are born with all sorts of problems...respiratory, cardiac, musculo-skeletal, etc. yet we have somehow been lulled into thinking that the reproductive system with all of its accompanying hormones is always PERFECT at birth! Yea, right!
I don't agree with homosexual behavior, but if I was attracted to my same gender I don't know if I would have the strength to go to church every Sunday and have my heartache for what I'll never have in this life....a family as God designed.
I personally like to think that those of us who don't have this trial are really the ones UNDER TRIAL..to see if we can love and accept and extend compassion as the Savior would.
Amen, Stephanie!
When I wrote this comment, my heart was not filled with hate or Judgment. I simply said what the bible said on it. It is a sin. And we are to repent of our sins everyday. We are to strive to be like the Lord. It is also a sin to fornicate,kill and to commit adultery. Do you think we are born to do that also? Of course not.We are born with a free will. But what will we do with it? Chose God's way or our own way. It is only when we choose our own way, that we feel lost and overwhelmed. When you choose God's way we feel free and joy. We need to learn to completely to rely on Jesus. Not make a decision or a move with out going to him first and wait upon him.We all live in a sinful world. And everyday we tried and tested. It is up to us to pass the test or not. The Lord of Israel does not slumber or sleep. He is always watching. The bible says many are called put few are chosen. If you have a problem with anything I have said, take it up with the Lord and not me. He is the one who makes the rules not me. I am not that brilliant. FYI, this is why I remained anonymous because I didn't want any personal attacks on me. And yes judgment has been passed on me. Reread your comments. Assuming that I had hatred and judgment is in fact passing judgment. Again I have only said what the bible has said about this. We should pray for this issue and it is a sin and a problem. That is way so many people feel lost and ashamed.In our spirits we know better. What would Jesus do? He would pray for them and love them. Remember it's the enemy who comes to steal,kill and destroy. I don't know about you but I am not okay with that. Lets cover our selves in prayer anyone we love and anyone we can think of. family's more than ever are under attack. and something like this issues can tear families apart. Again the enemy comes to kill,steal and destroy. And who says I am apart of the lds church anyway?
I don't want to add to some of the hateful and ignorant thoughts here-that being gay is a perversion, that it's just something "wrong" that happens at birth, or a problem to be carried through life in a person's "bag"-but this conversation just makes me ache for all of the young (and old) gay men and women in the Mormon church who have to reconcile a normal, healthy, LOVING pat of themselves with a community that teaches them that THEY (and I do mean them-not just their actions) are dirty and wrong and sinful. My religion (not Christianity) teaches me to act with integrity, do good works, stregthen my family, and live a life that is humble and honorable. Gay people, straight people, and everyone in between can live this way, and it's shamful that the church can't recognize this and instead encourages its members to supress and repress parts of themselves.
I'm not gay, but I live in a very liberal city with a large gay population-I wonder if the posters here and members of the church actually witnessed examples of normal, everyday gay life (relationships, families, etc.)if they would be so very afraid of the "treath" of homosexuality. Two friends of my mothers, gay men, partners for over 25 years, were both raised Mormon, and one was even an elder of his church. When he finally came out, he was literally forced from his community, and seperated from his 9 children. This was a man who loved God and the church, and was treated with hatred and scorn instead of the love and forgiveness he had always shown to others. It's difficult for me not to make a blanket statement about the Mormon church as a whole, but I know I would be angry if someone did that to my religion, so I'll just stop with this:
being gay is not a choice.
there is nothing wrong with being gay.
gay teens, in particular, need love and nonjudgemental support from their community.
If the Mormon church will not accept this, than really, what more can I say? I haven't read the book so I don't know what the overarching message is, but I hope it tells gay teens that there is hope and other choices besides the church, and the possibility of love, family, and acceptance in the world.
Dear first anonymous- The bible also promotes slavery, polygamy, silence of women in the churches, execution for homosexuality, adultery, astrology, breaking the sabbath, perjury and forbids wearing cloth that is a mix of wool and linen.
Somethings need to change with the times...
There's a quiet majority of "anonymous" who stand like mice behind God's Word against homosexuality. Unfortunately, faith doesn't allow anyone to stand quietly beside the Word. Truth must be loud. Otherwise, the noisy few will continue to oppress the Truth.
Some comments have said that God didn't make homosexuals and others have disagreed that obviously He has because they exist. Would you also say that God has made murderers and other sinners? God has created us all, but he does not condone the sin.
To the commentor who said, "You might not think that when your child or sibling tells you they are gay. Our family is dealing with this right now"... What you think does not matter - only truth matters. My family is dealing with a child who is carrying on in an adulterous relationship with a married woman. What is my family to think about that? Are we supposed to change our minds about what God has decreed for marriage simply because a child who is close to us has chosen to break God's law?
God IS and does not change.
Why don't people post with their actual names? If you feel strongly enough to judge - whether you are for homosexuality or not - you should at least have the guts to use your name. Just sayin'.
Thanks for the recommendation, CJane. I am constantly surprised at the caliber of some of the comments you get. Hoping you block out the haters & hold on to those of us who appreciate you...
I am LDS and have been for all 29 years of my life and I can say that I have never once been taught -- in Primary, Sunday School, Young Women, Relief Society -- to shun those who live a different lifestyle. Never has there been a lesson that said "If So-and-So announces that he is gay, what should we do? Kick him out of the neighborhood, of course." (Yes, I understand that that happens in some circumstances, but that is the act of the members of the church and not what the church teaches.)
I do believe that having these feelings, urges and desires towards people of the same sex is natural. And that's not what's wrong. HAVING those feelings is not a sin. CHOOSING to act on those feelings is where the sin comes in. And it absolutely is a choice.
I liken it to someone who is of a violent nature. There are many people out there who, when something upsets them, their first reaction is to lash out and hurt someone. This is a natural response for them. Does that make it right when they choose to give into that anger and hit someone? No.
"But why not, it's natural, right? It's in their nature."
That's what this life is all about...is working against what nature tells us is right and doing what our Heavenly Father tells us is right.
Megan and Katie:
My name is Emily. I am anonymous #7 (8?), and I am not hiding behind anything. I am proud of the way I feel, and obviously felt strongly enough about the previous postings to make a comment. I read CJane's blog because I like her writing and her perspective on a world I know nothing about. Does having a different opinion make me a hater? If so, I now an officially un-anonymous "hater," although my point was entirely about acceptance and respect.
In the case of homosexuality (and is it really nessecary to compare this to cheating and murder? really!?),being-not chooseing- who you are is not sin, it is truth (with a capitol T). Your interpretation of the bible leads you to believe the things you do, just as mine leads me to believe in a higher power who would accept a person for living their life openly and honestly.
I have a Jewish friend. He told me that in their religion being gay isn't considered a sin. It's acting on it that is. Those people that are gay and never act on it are held in a high regard for not giving into temptation.
For me, I don't know. I'm trying reconcile my beliefs. But I do know that the anger and hate people feel towards things they don't like (even if the bible tells them not to like it) is wrong.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
To anyone who has a personal comment to me about the above scripture save it. The Word of God is to not be debated. I did not write this,I believe it and stand firmly on it. God is not a liar. He is a merciful God and loving God. But at the same time he is just, sovereign, and holy. In Jesus' name Amen.
When it comes to gay friends and family, I have chosen to love my neighbors as myself and leave the judgement up to God where it belongs. Sometimes, I feel like the only Latter Day Saint who feels this way. I can't tell you how happy reading most of these comments and learning I'm not the only one who does.
See? A conversation like this is the reason why a book like No Going Back is important literature.
anypone who knows God and has felt His redeeming love, knows that being gay is not wrong.
it is who these people are. its something we know nothing about. waking up everyday knowing people hate you just because you love differently than they do.
God hates the sexual looseness and the debauchery the gay community struggles with. not the act of people loving in a committed and natural to them way.
turn off the conservative news, and go outside and meet these people. they are kind sweet people that think we christians hate them.
christians should for once take a stand on a social injustice and fight the fight for ALL HUMAN RIGHTS.
and i swear with everything i know, God has given me these words to say. He is not wrong.
thank you, courtney, for reviewing this book and acknowledging its existence. i'm not sure if i want to read it, but i'm glad to know about it.
this discussion makes me simultaneously happy and very, very sad.
i'm glad to see so many LDS folks who profess nothing but love for gay relatives and friends. i'm very, very sad that some people still view homosexuality as "a choice" or "not part of God's plan", and pass that along to their children and church fellows (i.e. anonymous 7:17...he's not vacillating, honey, he's trying to please you by trying to be straight. the only thing he's vacillating on is whether to live his life as himself, or as the person his family, church and frankly, mainstream american culture wants him to be. sigh. bless him, and you.).
i disagree with all of this. i don't think it's a choice. i think it's cruel for a church, especially such a magnetic, encompassing, whole-life church (religion, i guess i should say) as the Mormon church, to "allow" homosexual people to belong to the church as long as they do not act on their natural, irrefutable, inborn sexual preference. it's like being told you must not act on the fact that you have a lovely singing voice, or a keen intellect, or a natural facility for a sport. but many people find this acceptable in their religious culture, clearly. i appreciate that the church is trying to be halfway there as far as "love the sinner, hate the sin", but i just don't believe that homosexuality is a sin, and i personally wouldn't want to be hated for something that i am (if i was...so happens i'm straight). i think homosexuality is natural, right and good. and i think god thinks that too.
the bible is the dumbed-down (for human consumption only) version of god's thoughts, and much has been lost in translation and historical context. check out the book "the good book" by peter gomes (harvard chaplain). it addresses many complex social issues that come up in the bible (male chauvinism, slavery, homosexuality, etc).
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Book-Reading-Bible-Heart/dp/0380723239
Roxanne -
I honor and will defend your freedom of religion. People are free to believe in their God and practice their religion.
But, the rest of us need to be afforded the same right - even freedom from {your} religion. That is where the boundary needs to be - your beliefs should not dictate what others must adhere to. And please remember, these are your BELIEFS - it doesn't shut down others' beliefs or opinions just because you think it should.
Being intolerant does not make the world a better place. Even with the 'hate the sin/love the sinner' schtick or "but, I have a gay friend" spiel, it is what it is - intolerance and judgment. Who are any of us to say we can judge something as fundamental as how or who someone loves?
for the record: peter gomes is african-american, gay, Baptist, and Republican. not to be dismissed out of hand.
Why do people fight in other peoples comments? It makes no sense at all. We all face things that are trials for us. We all have struggles. It is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Does arguing help that?
One of the things I hoped was that my book might help create discussion. It looks like that's happening even without most people having read it...
CJane- I must say, I really respect how open you are about even the most controversial aspects of Mormonism. Even if you didn't intend to, your blogs have become forums for open (and sometimes bitter) communication between people of so many backgrounds. I hope you know that I've learned so much from you and your readers (the ones who agree and disagree with you and eachother) about what true representation of one's faith really looks like. Thanks!
Has anyone here seen Fish Out of Water? It's a documentary that looks at the relationship between homosexuality and the bible. It dissects the bible verses which some say references homosexuality and places the verses in a social and historical context. It is really enjoyable to watch and I would reccomend it to middle schoolers through adults. There are interviews with religious scholars, and religious leaders from a multitude of faiths.
http://www.fishoutofwaterfilm.com/
P.S. I deleted the post above...I hate typos :)
As I read these posts my thoughts started twisting ad turning and pretty soon I was asking, "so, how does this person feel exactly?" or "what are they trying to say?" I think this happens in part because we each define "homosexual" different. Is a person who has those feelings but doesn't act on them a homosexual? Or are they only a homosexual if they "come out" and then live the lifestyle? You know what I mean?
Again, I would bet my child's LIFE that my brother did not choose to be a homosexual...meaning have those feelings. Yes, he does choose to openly announce that he is gay and to be in relationships. He tried EVERYTHING to supress his feelings. He prayed, sought the help of church leaders, etc. His Stake Prsident told him that if he faithfully served the Lord on a mission those feelings would go away. Do I hate that Stake President? Was he wrong?
Well, it didn't work, but I don't hate him (the Stake President) for making a false promise and maybe he was inspired to say that. My brother influenced a lot of lives for good on his mission and brought a lot of people to Christ.
I wish my brother could supress his feelings. (Maybe he can if he tried harder? I don't know and it's not my place to decide that...thank heavens!!!) But I watched him fail out of college and nearly commit suicide. And I would take a happy, healthy, ALIVE homosexual brother over a brother who is lying in grave because he felt hated, especially by himself.
Christ can save ANY single ONE of us if He chooses too. He is no respector of persons. And quite frankly for those of you who judge homosexuals you might as well be committing sexual sins yourself. (Luke 6:37, 3 Ne. 14:1-2)
So in the end I have to ask, "What's the argument here anyway?" Whether it's a sin? (If you believe in the Bible then it is. But don't we all sin?) Whether or not my brother (or any other homosexual) will go to hell? I don't think there is a single person other than Jesus Christ who can anwer that question. So until I see Him, I'll just fill my days trying to love and serve ALL of God's children.
No matter what your religion .. just picture this. You've grown up going to church every Sunday, participated in youth group, Sunday school, camps baptisms etc. The whole thing. Somewhere along the way you come out and announce your gay. Suddenly, the church community (again -- fill in the denomination -- this is an issue outside of the LDS church, too) shuns you and your lifestyle. You become angry. But really .. sad. You miss those traditions about church. You genuinely ache that you are no longer allowed to participate like you did.
This is happening. EVERYWHERE. Baptist, Catholic etc. etc. It just makes me sad for my gay friends and family. It just makes me sad.
So my brother is raising his two daughters as a single dad (he and his ex-wife share custody). His then-LDS wife began having lesbian relationships while married to him. They have been divorced for seven-plus years now, and she is living openly as a lesbian while he remains active in the LDS church. And in conjunction with LDS teachings, he has lived those seven years as a single, celibate man.
I find it ironic that so many people say the homosexual urge is just too strong; it's impossible for gay/lesbian people to stay celibate and ridiculous to expect them to stay celibate. As one commenter wrote, her gay brother did "EVERYTHING to suppress his feelings."*
I'm hearing this more and more from LDS members who have gay family members. And yet these same LDS members accept that the (sometimes lifelong) single adults in their wards--maybe the Primary teacher or Young Women leader who teaches their children--will stay chaste. In fact, they expect it of them.
It just seems a double standard. People excuse my former sister-in-law's behavior because she's just doing "what comes naturally." While my brother tries to stay faithful to his beliefs and resists "what comes naturally" every day.
Some would say the inconsistency would be solved by the LDS church recognizing gay unions. Then EVERYONE would have the same standard of abstinence outside of marriage and faithfulness in marriage.
I don't think that's the answer, although I don't know what the answer is. I only know that it isn't impossible to remain chaste or the Lord wouldn't have asked it of us. But I'm not saying it isn't freaking, next-to-impossible hard for many.
(*Footnote: Though the commenter later surmises that maybe her brother could suppress his feelings if he tried harder.)
Personal experience from an older, practicing, LDS woman: I was involved in a loving female/female relationship for three years while in my young twenties. Of course we were not married. We also were not "open" with our relationship. This partnership satisfied me physically and emotionally, but not spiritually.
We did not continue the relationship beyond that 3 year period. I don't regret ending the relationship, even though it was a very difficult thing to do. We both believed LDS doctrine: that intimate physical relationships were designed by God to be male/female, and also only within the sacred bonds of marriage.
You are not required to feel sorry for me. Please don't. This was what I wanted. I chose to enter the relationship with a female, and I chose to end it. It was something I felt I wanted to do. Actually, it was something we both chose for ourselves.
I "chose" this lifestyle at the time as a way of intimately expressing my love for my closest friend and partner.
Fast forward to my current situation: that of a loving female/male relationship that has been satisfying and healthy, for years and years. And, yes, we are married.
I will not presume to speak for anyone else. I will state, however, as clearly as I can, that my relationship with a female was a "choice". And my relationship with a male has been a choice. I have not felt "compelled" in either situation.
I have pondered on this topic for years and years and have come to the conclusion that - FOR ME - my physically intimate relationship with a female, and later with a male, was the natural outcome of a deep, emotionally intimate friendship and relationship.
However, as I have already stated: my same-sex relationship was not spiritually satisfying. On the other hand, my relationship with my husband IS - spiritually, physically, and emotionally fulfilling.
I have come to the conclusion that God would have me control my strong sexual impulses, whether I find myself attracted to someone of the opposite sex, or not. That means full chastity as a single person. It also means full fidelity after marriage - marriage being male and female, like the first couple, Adam and Eve. I do not believe God intended us to "create" families outside the pattern (male/female/marriage) He established, although I realize we do, all the time. Just the same, because we do it does not make it right.
I know this comment is rather long, and of course, I realize there will be some of you who will 'beat' me up for it. But this has been MY reality.
P.S. I have chosen to remain anonymous in deference to my husband and children, who were not able to vote for my "choice" at the time, but who would now have to vicariously experience the consequences of that choice if I were to give my name.
P.P.S. And some of you will be outraged that I call myself a practicing LDS woman after admitting to an intimate relationship outside the bonds of marriage, and with someone of the same sex, no less. Should you feel inclined to rant on that point, please be aware that I believe in a loving Savior, who has worked the great Atonement for me. And for you. And for all of us - no matter what our burdens, sins, sorrows, and weaknesses are. I believe in the power of repentance. I have labored long and hard to be in a place where I feel cleansed from my "choice". And I sorrow to think that my choice caused great pain to my Redeemer. But that is for another topic.
With respect to the comment by "Anonymous" that begins, "Personal experience from an older, practicing, LDS woman..."
Thank you so much for sharing that deeply inspiring comment! I respect and honor both your choices and your willingness to describe those choices to others who may benefit from understanding better what it has been like for you to be in those circumstances.
Why some of you ENDORSE PEDOPHILIA and adultery:
If we are okay with acting on "naturally occurring" attractions and appetites, saying they cannot be helped, then pedophiles are A-okay! What? They are just behaving based on their "natural loving feelings" to look at kiddie porn and fantasize about children, and carry on relationships with them! Who cares if the child can't consent (besides the fact that it's just wrong)? Their urges are impossible to repress and society is inhumanely oppressing the rights of pedophiles everywhere by thinking it's okay to tell others who they can love!
Or, what married person hasn't ever seen a member of the opposite sex and thought "He/She's attractive." Acting on that attraction, however brief or sustained, would be considered adulterous and looked down upon by most of society.
I wholeheartedly agree with Betty above, who endorsed that those who subscribe to the virtue of chastity (religious or not) expect single, straight persons to be chaste, but for homosexuals, it's too much to bear.
We have agency to choose over every action in our body, except instincts. The urge to have sex is a biological instinct. The act itself is not. Deny that fact, and you endorse PEDOPHILES.
Some people are gay. Get over it.
To compare homosexuals to pedophiles is just nasty and hateful.
Wow... comparing a loving, consenting, legal, adult homosexual relationship to pedophilia? Really?! You don't have a better point than that? How unfortunate.
I think the point Courtney was making is that there are some desires that seem to be a "natural" part of someone's personality, that we as a society nevertheless have decided should not be acted on regardless of that.
I'm not at all sure that comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is useful. As I think we've seen, the main effect seems to be to fan the flames of rhetoric, rather than understanding. However, the basic point is still worth stating. For those such as orthodox LDS who believe that homosexuality is contrary to the commandments of God, the fact that such feelings may be "natural" does not mean they should be acted upon. For believing members of the LDS Church, including those who are attracted to those of their own gender, choosing not to act on those feelings is one of the sacrifices they make in order to follow their religious beliefs.
I NEVER said that homosexuals are pedophiles or that they are disgusting or low class. I was saying that as a society we have exceptions for certain "natural feelings" and not for other "natural feelings". You cannot tell one group of people that they can act on their feelings as long as you're comfortable with it, and tell another group to get rid of their feelings and throw them in jail because YOU are not comfortable with it. People who have studied ancient Greece know that in Athens, it was considered a necessary part of growing up to pair off a young boy with an older man to be mentored by him, lessons included sex between them. Society was okay with these attractions and actions, and encouraged them. I am not condoning pedophilia, I am using epistemological differences in today's world to point out flaw in the argument that homosexuals are merely "acting on natural feelings", implying that they have no choice but to do so.
In fact, I find it outrightly degrading to homosexuals to say they are incapable of controlling their feelings, and must therefore be weak. It's not fair to them to say that they have no self control, and must act on their instincts, like an animal. It's insulting to say they don't have the intellect to make choices concerning their actions.
I apologize to anyone who thought I was saying homosexuals are pedophiles, etc, because I certainly know and believe differently. This argument is not about whether homosexuality is even right or wrong, it's about choice.
Courtney, honestly? Your response and backtracking is problematic.
"You cannot tell one group of people that they can act on their feelings as long as you're comfortable with it, and tell another group to get rid of their feelings and throw them in jail because YOU are not comfortable with it"
Number 1. We don't throw pedophiles in jail because we are 'not comfortable' with them. They are irreparably harming a child and shattering them.
Number 2. Anti-gay rhetoric in this country in the last 20 years has always ginned up fear with indirect and direct references to pedophilia.{Gays shouldn't be teaching in schools, fear of contact with children, etc.} To compare a group of people, any group of healthy and normal people, to pedophiles is insulting - and you KNOW you wouldn't say that to their face.
Number 3. There is a difference in having a choice about who we are sexually and how one chooses to act. When it is said that being gay is not a choice, that it is something intrinsic to that individual, something that you are born with - it is not saying they have no control and are 'weak'. Your indignation that homosexuals have been insulted by those here speaking up, right on the heels of your comparison to pedophiles boggles the mind.
Number 4. Look at the first bit of your reply - " you can't tell one group of people that they can act on their feelings....". Well, that is exactly what individuals and churches do. The problem is, there is a big world out there of people that think differently. Wouldn't the individual need to be the one to make the choice as to whether they would seek to have a sexual relationship in or outside of marriage or to keep celibate until marriage? Isn't it degrading to not allow people a choice? or even worse, to say they can't have sex outside of marriage and at the same time not allow them to get married?
Your religion should not dictate what everyone else should believe or think, or how they live their lives.
Anon,
I find it "mind boggling" to see that there is so much excitement over the word pedophile in connection with this post. I used the word "homosexual" once in the entire comment, so I don't understand how you and others have gathered that I said (or even implied) homosexuals are pedophiles, that they are both animal, etc. My comment was read with prejudice, and something was inferred that I did not mention or imply.
People are chalking homosexual behaviour up to "natural feelings" alone, arguing that "I feel, therefore I must act". Athenians thought pedophilia was okay. We do not. They thought homosexuality was cultured. We do not. Are we, as a society, heading towards complete acceptance of homosexuality? What made it okay then? What makes it wrong, or okay now? Same questions regarding pedophiles, they were cultured then, why aren't they now? It was not considered "shattering" to a child, but necessary. (I believe differently, of course)
Epistemology is an examination of how we know what we know and why we think what we think.
I haven't personally read any studies on the effect (+ or -) of homosexual practice on societies as a whole. Are there public health issues, accountability issues, negative effects on demographic, self image, etc? Have these items been taken into consideration regarding socially acceptable homosexual behaviour? Can we say whether it is beneficial, neutral, or negative for sure?
Again, people are boiling homosexual behaviour down to "I feel, therefore I must act". I used the same argument for a different kind of behaviour, that when looked at in terms of entire history has been accepted sometimes and rejected others, just like homosexual behaviour has been.
"I am a homosexual". "Am" is a verb, an action word. To say you "are" a homosexual requires that you act/behave homosexually. I have no doubt that some people are born with the tendency towards homosexuality, and have thoughts and feelings in that direction. All that means, is that they have homosexual thoughts/feelings, but ARE not homosexuals until they ACT homosexually - and action is a choice. Again, I am not discussing right or wrongness, but choice to act.
As for religion: religion can do and say what it wants because religion does not pick us, we pick it. There is no point in being angry at religion for "discriminating" against you in one way or another because you can choose (again, choice) to not belong to that religion. Religion is a concept, an inanimate object, something not even tangible. Being mad at religion is like being mad at the idea of Santa Claus (sorry if I spoiled it for anyone *wink* ) People are upset with the intangible religion that "discriminates" (again, a verb, but intangible things can't actively act), so they turn to something tangible to be angry with, hence the people who subscribe to said "discriminate" religion. Furthermore, religion is so different and personal to every person, can one infer that because Mr.X is religion Y, that he doesn't like gays? That's stereotyping. You don't know what every person who claims to be religion Y, or what aspects of the religion they reject or embrace. I, and other persons here, believe that homosexuality is contrary to God's ideals. This says nothing about the goodness or wrongfulness of those who behave homosexually. People are getting angry/hurt because they wrongfully INFER that the above statement means that gays are inherently "evil" people and the like. It's stereotypical and prejudicial against religion/religious persons - which is hypocritical, if you have read this whole comment.
By this logic, Courtney, you aren't a heterosexual until after you have sexual acts or thoughts for someone of the opposite sex, right? That's not how we think of that, though.
The scientific evidence is increasingly supporting sexuality as being genetically based, and perhaps even more interestingly as something that's influenced in utero. There's also a supported finding that suggests that it might be more common in families with more children.
Courtney,
Your opinion is interesting, thanks for sharing. Here is what I think when I read your post. When you write IN ALL CAPS people read that as screaming. So writing ENDORSE PEDOPHILES in relation to a conversation on homosexuality is going to cause a stir. Anyway, we really can't get pedantic about this argument. There are many, many, many passages of the old testament that condemn or condone behavior that mainline Christian Churches no longer take literally -- slavery anyone? I haven't heard anyone explain that away to my liking. I think its best to take the example of Jesus as a loving savior as the most important message of the bible.
Janet and Brooke, thank you for really reading my comments and putting thought into your responses. I genuinely appreciate it.
Brooke: Lol, I agree with myself that I 'am' not heterosexual until I act or encourage thoughts/feelings of heterosexuality. In regards to your comment (which I thought truly insightful) I think we don't think "that way" because we generally assume everyone heterosexual until they behave otherwise. Why do we assume this? Are we being judgemental or is it something "innate"? What do you think?
Janet: I wrote that way knowing it would cause a stir, thinking readers might question the "natural feelings" validation. Persons subscribe to this "natural feelings" notion as an explanation for behaviour without regard to the pretenses or consequences of the behaviour for group A (gays). I used the exact same logic and disregard in application to group B (peds), knowing people abhor pedophilia and would say my reasoning was wrong. I was hoping that people would see that that reasoning was false in both situations. I think people read my comment and responded having thought along these lines: "Hitler was a man. He hated Jews. Therefore, all men hate Jews." - which is obviously illogical, leading to an illogical and abstract inference.
Once again, I appreciate both of your thoughtful responses and that you used your names.
Post a Comment